作者 主题: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)  (阅读 1016 次)

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[PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 于: 2018-05-17, 周四 15:21:37 »
1. 以下層級表並非以戰鬥力為評量標準,想看哪些職業最能砍爆團的觀眾可以上一頁離開了。評量標準見FAQ第六條及裡面的範例。
2. 以下層級表的目的並非指出哪些是最強職業,哪些是最弱職業。而是在評量職業的強度(power)和變通性(versatility),進而方便去做平衡,以及幫助帶團的DM和跑團的玩家去做其他各方面的考量。詳細見FAQ。
3. 內容不翻譯,字太多,貓太懶,天氣太熱。


前言 取自 JaronK's Tier list for classes
My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group.  If the group as a whole is very powerful and flexible, the DM can simply up the challenge level and complexity of the encounters.  If it's weak and inflexible, the DM can lower the challenge level and complexity.  Serious issues arise when the party is composed of some members which are extremely powerful and others which are extremely weak, leading to a situation where the DM has two choices: either make the game too easy for the strong members, or too hard for the weak members.  Neither is desirable.  Thus, this system is created for the following purposes:

1)  To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PC classes in their group

2)  To provide players with knowledge of where their group stands, power wise, so that they can better build characters that fit with their group.

3)  To help DMs who plan to use house rules to balance games by showing them where the classes stand before applying said house rules (how many times have we seen DMs pumping up Sorcerers or weakening Monks?).

4)  To help DMs judge what should be allowed and what shouldn't in their games.  It may sound cheesy when the Fighter player wants to be a Half Minotaur Water Orc, but if the rest of his party is Druid, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, and Artificer, then maybe you should allow that to balance things out.  However, if the player is asking to be allowed to be a Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and the rest of the party is a Monk, a Fighter, and a Rogue, maybe you shouldn't let that fly.

5)  To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes.  Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier.  Generally, I like Tier 3 as a balance point, but I know many people prefer Tier 4.  If it's stronger than Tier 1, you definitely blew it.

This post is NOT intended to state which class is "best" or "sucks."  It is only a measure of the power and versatility of classes for balance purposes.

Psionic classes are mostly absent simply because I don't have enough experience with them. Other absent classes are generally missing because I don't know them well enough to comment, though if I've heard a lot about them they're listed in italics. Note that "useless" here means "the class isn't particularly useful for dealing with situation X" not "it's totally impossible with enough splat books to make a build that involves that class deal with situation X." "Capable of doing one thing" means that any given build does one thing, not that the class itself is incapable of being built in different ways. Also, "encounters" here refers to appropriate encounters... obviously, anyone can solve an encounter with purely mechanical abilities if they're level 20 and it's CR 1.

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier in terms of tier descriptions, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level.  As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

As a further note, some classes have specific variants or options to them that drastically change their abilities.  These classes are noted on multiple tiers.  If a variant is not mentioned, it's in the same Tier as the standard class (for example, the Cloistered Cleric is not mentioned because it's T1 like the Cleric.  The same goes for the Battle Sorcerer and the Wilderness Rogue).  Classes in blue are on the high side of their Tier and can easily move up.  Classes in red are on the low side of their Tier and can easily move down.


註:前言及FAQ取自DnD 3.5的文章,但想法是通用的。

以下層級表的通用原則:不考慮變體,或者變體單獨列出。中等且同樣的優化程度,不考慮特殊build或高優化。
劇透 -   :
Tier lists assume a reasonable degree of competence where you know how to make good use of your class. This is without any serious optimization or resorting to game-breaking intent. A number of classes can go up a tier depending on how they're optimized. For instance, a Diplomancer Bard can easily be Tier 2. A UMD Paladin can also be Tier 2 with the right items. Anyone can be a Tier 1 with a Craft Wondrous Item feat and Candles of Invocation, but this would definitely be game-breaking intent.
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #1 于: 2018-05-17, 周四 15:25:22 »
很重要的FAQ,很重要的FAQ,很重要的FAQ。
評量標準,作者的目的,以及其他很重要的話都在這裡面。

FAQ:

Q1:  So, which is the best Tier?

A:  In the end, the best Tier is the Tier that matches the rest of your party and appeals to you.  If your party is Fighter, Rogue, Healer, Barbarian, then Tier 4 or 5 is going to be the best.  If your party is Sorcerer, Beguiler, Crusader, Swordsage, then Tier 2-3 will be best.  Really, if you're having fun and no one in the party feels either useless or overpowered, then you're doing it right.  Personally, I prefer Tier 3, but I still match to whatever party I'm in if I join after other characters are created.

That said, here's something that might help some DMs decide which tier is best for their campaigns:

劇透 -   :
So, I was thinking about the whole "what is the best Tier" thing.  And of course it varies by campaign, but I'll talk about it a bit.

Tier 1 is the best tier if you want the PCs to be super powered... similar to an Exalted campaign (the RPG, not BoED).  I've heard of one great campaign where the DM made the only character creation rule be that your character had to be evil and be after immortality.  They had a Wizard who turned into a Lich, a Druid who used Reincarnation cheese, and so on.  When they hit level 20 after having totally thrashed the campaign world, the DM ended the campaign and started a new one.  It was 1000 years in the future, and the evil characters were all epic now, and ruling the whole land.  The players had to start over as first level good characters and try to defeat their old PCs.  Neat.  Also, Clerics and Druids can be very nice for newbies because any poor build choices they make early on really won't matter that much later... sure, Weapon Focus Scimitar on the Druid may have been dumb, but you can turn into a Dire Bear so who cares?  And if you picked the wrong spells today, that's okay... pick better ones tomorow.  That said, I only recommend this tier for veteran DMs who can keep the PCs in line in agreeable ways, as campaigns can be broken very quickly by the unpredictable and powerful tools available to the players.  Be aware that house rules or gentleman's agreements will become necessary at this level when the players master their classes, as these classes will become absolutely broken if actually allowed to play by RAW with no limits.

Tier 2... I'm not sure how many people would specifically want this one because it's pretty small, but it does have the advantage of giving you big power spells while still being at least a bit more predictable with your tricks.  Newbies who might be overwhelmed with the number of spells constantly available to Clerics and Druids and Wizards might be more comfortable if they don't have to re choose their spells every day, so it might be best for them.  Note that because the Tier 2 classes have as much raw power as the Tier 1s, they too will require gentleman's agreements, house rules, or simply players who don't go all out to avoid game breakage when the players learn their classes.

Tier 3 is the best tier for me.  Everyone in the party has great tricks and can still throw some big surprises at me when I'm DMing, but everyone else still needs a party to work with them, which makes it easier to make sure specific party members have chances to shine.  I like the versitility of players at this level, and power wise they're still managable without flat out saying "no, you can't do that."  It's possible to do game breaking things with Tier 3s, but that's much less of a danger as you can't really break the game without trying with a Tier 3 class (whereas any Sorcerer who wanted to make a home base and took Genesis might suddenly say "hey wait a minute, this spell can mess with time traits!" and suddenly break the game with little warning).

Tier 4 is best for a lot of people too.  At this Tier you can start predicting what the players will do in a situation, so DMs can better gauge how encounters will go.  That Barbarian is going to deal a lot of damage through charging... if you want a hard encounter, use difficult terrain or whatever, and if you want an easier encounter, make sure he's got a target he can charge.  The more flexible Tier 4s will be less predictable but they won't blow you away with a sudden trick you didn't see coming... that Rogue may have awesome tricks with his UMD, but only with items that you give him.  Plus, teamwork is definitely important at this level.  That Barbarian may be awesome in combat, but when it's time for stealth, he's not going to shine, and someone else will.  As such, this is definitely a nice tier for beginning DMs who want to have solid control over their parties without fully railroading.

Tier 5 is probably best for new DMs, especially when dealing with veteran players.  PCs at this point are getting very predictable.  That Fighter with Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain will trip enemies, the Healer will be a healbot, the Monk can run fast and make a lot of attacks, but generally speaking you know what's going to happen in advance, especially in combat.  This predictability makes it easy for a DM to guide the plot where he wants without it looking like railroading, as the limitations of the classes provide the railroad tracks for you.  If the PCs are supposed to kill a dragon by going in through his cave, that's what they'll do... they're not going to Love's Pain nuke said dragon from miles away and then float ethereally through his lair or something.

Tier 6 is best when what you want is a fun little low powered game.  The PCs are very limited, so challenges should be primarily player-centric in nature, since the classes themselves won't create many good solutions to situations.    Puzzles that the players must solve, fights that are more about organization than damage dealing, and so on.  This tier works very well for veterans who want a challenge and newbies who want more fluff than crunch when playing, as classes don't have many abilities to get confused by (except the Samurai of course).  Really, if you want to play at this low power level, you may be more satisfied playing a game like A|State than D&D, but it's worth doing once in a while.

Q2:  Why is my favorite class too low?  It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A:  Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes.  Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class.  As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else.  This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway).  As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.  If everybody looks at this system and sees that one or two of their favorite classes are a tier or so too low, but most other stuff looks about right, I consider it a success.

Q3:  I totally saw a [Class X] perform far better than a [Class Y] even though you list it as lower.  What gives?

A:  This system assumes that everything other than mechanics is totally equal.  It's a ranking of the mechanical classes themselves, not of the players who use that class.  As long as the players are of equal skill and optimize their characters roughly the same amount, it's fine.  If one player optimizes a whole lot more than the other, that will shift their position on the chart.  Likewise, if one player is more skilled than the other, or campaign situations favor one playstyle over another, classes can shift around.  Remember, this is a rough ranking and a guideline, not a perfect ruler.

Q4:  So what a minute, how can I use it then?  My players all play differently.

A:  First, determine what you'd say is the average optimization and skill level in the group, then make adjustments for people who are noticably different from that.  I can't give examples of skill level, but here's an example for optimization.  Imagine for a moment that your party has a Cleric with DMM: Persistant Spell, a Fighter with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, a Beguiler with a Mindbender dip and Mindsight, and a traditional Sword and Board Fighter.  Now, the first three are pretty optimized, but the fourth is pretty weak.   So in that case, what you've actually got is a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and a Tier 6, with that second Fighter being Tier 6 because he's far less optimized than the rest of the group.  However, if your group is instead a healbot Cleric, a Beguiler who hasn't figured out how to use illusions effectively, a Sword and Board Fighter, and a Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Fighter, then the charge based Fighter is the odd one out.  Bump him up a Tier... maybe even 2.  So now you've got a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and maybe a Tier 4.  Remember, this whole thing is about intra party balance... there's no objective balancing, because each campaign is different.

Also, a simple way I've used it is this: in my regular gaming group, I've got one player who optimizes like crazy and likes making characters for other players.  And then I've got a bunch of people who make their own characters, and they're less optimized.  I can therefor tell people that they can be a Tier 4 class if they let him make their characters, or Tier 3 if they make their own.  It's worked out pretty well.

Q5:  Why didn't you rank this from best to worst, like Wizard first, Archivist second, and so on?  Why tiers?

A:  There are too many variables in the game to actually rank the classes from best to worst.  If the DM allows the Archivist to just research any spell he wants and is including the Divine Magician and Divine Bard varients in his game, plus the other ways for Archivists to get all Wizard/Sorcerer spells, then the Archivist is clearly stronger than the Wizard.  If not, the Wizard may be stronger than the Archivist.  Factors like that, plus questions of which books are allowed, what the wealth by level is, and what access to magic shops is allowed to the players... these things make it impossible to make a specific ranking of best to worst without assuming a heck of a lot, and I wanted this system to work for the vast majority of games.  As such, I ranked them in tiers of power... regardless of the general campaign, an Archivist and a Wizard will be reasonably close to each other in power, and both will be far stronger than a Monk, for example.  I do still have to make a few basic assumptions, such as that player skill and optimziation are reasonably close and that for the most part RAW is being played, but that's about it.

Also, the purpose of this system isn't to say "X class is the best!"  It's to allow players and DMs to maintain intraparty balance... for that purpose, tiers are specific enough.

Q6:  So what exactly is this system measuring?  Raw Power?  Then why is the Barbarian lower than the Duskblade, when the Barbarian clearly does more damage?

A:  The Tier System is not specifically ranking Power or Versitility (though those are what ends up being the big factors). It's ranking the ability of a class to achieve what you want in any given situation. Highly versitile classes will be more likely to efficiently apply what power they have to the situation, while very powerful classes will be able to REALLY help in specific situations. Classes that are both versitile and powerful will very easily get what they want by being very likely to have a very powerful solution to the current problem. This is what matters most for balance.

For example, here's how the various Tiers might deal with a specific set of situations, cut to spoilers due to size:

劇透 -   :
Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Okay, so, here we go.

Tier 6: A Commoner. Situation 1: If he's REALLY optimized, he could be a threat to the dragon, but a single attack from the dragon could take him out too. He can't really offer help getting to said dragon. He could fill up the entire cave with chickens, but that's probably not a good idea. Really, he's dead weight unless his build was perfectly optimized for this situation (see my Commoner charger build for an example). Situation 2: Well, without any stealth abilities or diplomacy, he's not too handy here, again unless he's been exactly optimized for this precise thing (such as through Martial Study to get Diplomacy). Really, again his class isn't going to help much here. Situation 3: Again, no help from his class, though the chicken thing might be amusing if you're creative.

Tier 5: A Fighter. Situation 1: If he's optimized for this sort of thing (a tripper might have trouble, though a charger would be handy if he could get off a clear shot, and an archer would likely work) he can be a threat during the main fight, but he's probably just about useless for sneaking down through the cave and avoiding any traps the dragon has set out without alerting said dragon. Most likely the party Rogue would want to hide him in a bag of holding or something. Once in the fight if he's optimized he'll be solid, but if not (if he's a traditional SAB build or a dual weilding monkey grip type) he's going to be a liability in the combat (though not as bad as the Commoner). Situation 2: As the commoner before, his class really won't help here. His class just doesn't provide any useful tools for the job. It's possible (but very unlikely) that he's optimized in a way that helps in this situation, just as with the Commoner. Situation 3: Again, his class doesn't help much, but at least he could be pretty useful during the main battle as a front line trooper of some sort. Hack up the enemy and rack up a body count.

Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

Tier 3: The Beguiler. Situation 1: Again, getting through the cave is easy, perhaps easier with spell support. And again, if he's really prepared in advance, Shivering Touch via UMD is a possibility. But he's also got spells that could be quite useful here depending on the situation, and if he's optimized heavily, this is going to be pretty easy... Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps? Or Earth Dreamer? Either way, he's got a lot of available options, though like the Rogue he's somewhat squishy (and that Dragon won't fall for many illusions with his Blindsense) so he still needs that party support. Situation 2: Again, with his skills he's all over this one, plus the added ability to cast spells like charm makes this one much easier, allowing him to make contacts in the city quickly while he figures out where this guy is. Situation 3: Like the Rogue, he can get strategic advantages and be all over the Diplomacy. He's not quite as good at assassinating people if he takes that route (though sneaking up invisible and then using a coup de gras with a scythe is pretty darn effective), but using illusions during the fight will create some serious chaos in his favor. A single illusion of a wall of fire can really disrupt enemy formations, for example.

Tier 2: The Sorcerer. Situation 1: It really depends on the Sorcerer's spell load out. If he's got Greater Floating Disk, Spectral Hand, and Shivering Touch, this one's going to be easy as pie, since he can just float down (and carry his party in the process) to avoid many traps, then nail the dragon in one shot from a distance. If he doesn't he'd need scrolls with the same issues that the UMD Rogue and Beguiler would need. If he's got Explosive Runes he could create a bomb that would take out the Dragon in one shot. If he's got Polymorph he could turn the party melee into a Hydra for extra damage. If he's got Alter Self he could turn himself into a Skulk to get down there sneakily. Certainly, it's possible that the Sorcerer could own this scenario... if he has the right spells known. That's always the hard part for a Sorcerer. Situation 2: Again, depends on the spell. Does he have divinations that will help him know who's part of the resistance and who's actually an evil spy for the Tyranical Govenerment? Does he have charm? Alter Self would help a ton here too for disguise purposes if he has it. Once again, the options exist that could totally make this easy, but he might not have those options. Runestaffs would help a bit, but not that much. Scrolls would help too, but that requires access to them and good long term preparation. Situation 3: Again, does he have Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone to make fortifications? Does he have Wall of Fire to disrupt the battlefield? How about Mind Rape and Love's Pain to kill off the enemy commanders without any ability to stop him? Does he have Blinding Glory on his spell list, or Shapechange, or Gate? Well, maybe. He's got the power, but if his spells known don't apply here he can't do much. So, maybe he dominates this one, maybe not.

Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call. Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there. Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.

So yeah, as you move up the Tiers you go from weak, unadaptable, and predictable (that Commoner's got very few useful options) to strong, adaptable, and unpredictable (who knows what that Wizard is going to do?). A Wizard can always apply a great deal of strength very efficiently, whether it's Shivering Touch on the Dragon or Blinding Glory on an enemy army. The Sorcerer has the power, but he may not have power that he can actually apply to the situation. The Beguiler has even less raw power and may have to use UMD to pull it off. The Rogue is even further along that line. And the Fighter has power in very specific areas which are less likely to be useful in a given situation.

That's really what the Tiers are about. How much does this class enable you to achieve what you want in a given situation? The more versitile your power, the more likely that the answer to that question is "a lot." If you've got tons of power and limited versitility (that's you, Sorcerers and charging Barbarians) then sometimes the answer is a lot, but sometimes it's not much. If you've got tons of versitility but limited power (hi, Rogue!) then it's often "a decent amount." If you've got little of both (Commoner!) then yeah, it's often "it doesn't."

And of course reversing that and applying it to DMs, you get "how many effective options does this class give for solving whatever encounters I throw at them?" For Commoners, the answer may be none. For Fighters, it's sometimes none, sometimes 1, maybe 2, but you generally know in advance what it will be (if he's got Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain and all that, he's probably going to be tripping stuff, just a hint). For Wizards, it's tons, and they're all really potent, and you have no idea how he's going to do it. Does he blind the enemy army or assassinate all its leaders or turn into a Solar and just arbitrarily win the battle? There's no way to know until he memorizes his spells for the day (and even then you might not see it coming).

Q7:  But what about dips?  I mean, I rarely see anyone playing single class characters.  What would a Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 be, for example?

A:  It's pretty simple.  This system is paying attention to the fact that people are more likely to take the early levels of a class than the later levels, either because they simply don't get to a level where they'd see the late levels, or because of dipping.  Generally speaking, a mix of classes should end up being as high up as the most powerful class in the mix if it's optimized, or somewhere in the middle of the classes used if not very optimized, and below them both if it's really strangely done.  A Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 that's optimized would thus be Tier 4 generally, because it took the best qualities of a Barbarian (probably pounce, rage, and so on) and then made it stronger.  Generally, you don't multiclass out unless you get something better by doing so, so you're usually going to end up at least as strong as the strongest class.  This isn't always true, but it generally is.  Meanwhile, if you do something silly like Wizard 4/Sorcerer 4, you might end up much lower.  But assuming you're not doing anything rediculous, a combination of Tier 4 and Tier 5 classes will usually be Tier 4, though it might be Tier 5.  Similar examples would be that a Scout/Ranger is probably going to be Tier 4 (though because there's a multiclassing feat for that, it could end up Tier 3), a Monk 1/Druid X will be Tier 1, a Fighter 2/Warblade X will be Tier 3, and so on.

Q8:  My players want to play classes of wildly different Tiers.  What can I do about this?

A:  Well, this will be a test of your DMing skill.  The easiest solution is to convince them to play classes that are similar conceptually but different in power.  For example, if they're currently going with Paladin, Druid, Monk, Illusionsist, then maybe you can get them to try out Crusader, Wild Shape Varient Ranger, Unarmed Varient Swordsage, Beguiler.  That would make your life a lot easier.  But if they're attached to their classes or feel that their class choice bests fits their character, then you've got a few options.  One is to see the house rule section above and try something like that.  Another is to simply provide extra support for the weaker classes... for example, perhaps more random magic items that drop are useful for unarmed strikers, while Wildling Clasps just don't seem to exist in your game.  Maybe allowing more oddball "broken" tricks for the Monk (and perhaps Paladin) while being much more strict with the Illusionist and Druid.  You can also allow more PrC options for the weaker guys... Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Unarmed Swordsage 4/Master of Nine 5 is fine for that Monk, but Illusionist 10/Earth Dreamer 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is not acceptable, and Druid/Planar Shepard is right out.   You can also make sure that the challenges being put forward suit the strengths of the weaker classes.  Something that makes good use of the Monk and Paladin's diplomacy would be advisable, for example.  A challenge where being able to run really fast is handy might work too.  And finally, you can bring the Druid and Illusionist aside and tell them the answer to the next question.

Q9:  My party mates all want to play classes of wildly different Tiers.  What can I do about this?

A:  First... see if you can get them to play something closer together, as above.  If that won't work, okay.  Now, if the class you're playing is noticeably stronger than everyone else, try focusing your energy on buffing your party mates.  Channel your power through them... it helps.  If you're a DMM Cleric in a party with a Monk and Fighter, try persisting Recitation, Lesser Vigor, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful instead of Righteous Might, Divine Power, and Divine Favor.  You're still very powerful, and definitely getting results, but since you use your party mates to get those results, they feel useful too.  Also, let them shine in their areas.  If they're melees and you're a Cleric, don't turn into Godzilla and smash Tokyo.  It's not polite.  Focus on the other areas a bit more.  If one of them is playing a Rogue, using Divine Insight to beat him on skills isn't nice.  Let him have his fun, and save your spells for other areas if you can.  If, however, you're playing a weaker class, then optimize optimize optimize!  A CW Samurai is going to have a lot of trouble in a party full of Tier 3s and up, so maybe try being a Necropolitan CW Samurai 10/Zhentarium Fighter 10 with Imperious Command, Eviscerator, Improved Critical, and a pair of Lifedrinker Kukris.  Carve out a niche where you're the king... they can have everything else.  Also, make sure you've got something to do when you do have to sit out.  Give your character a drinking habit or something.

Q10:  Why does it matter if a class has broken abilities?  Won't a DM just nerf that anyway?  Shouldn't you just ignore broken abilities when ranking classes?

A:  It actually matters a great deal if a class has broken abilities (such as flowing time Genesis, Planar Binding Wish loops, and so on).  This system is designed to help DMs and players know what kind of power is coming their way, and if a DM is blindsided by something broken that's a serious problem.  I'm not going to tell someone that a Sorcerer is weak because I'm assuming their best spells are all nerfed... I'd rather warn them that Sorcerers have overpowered abilities, so that they look more closely at the character sheets of Sorcerers that are playing in their game and watch out for such stuff.  Remember, not everyone has the same opinion of "broken" and nothing ticks a player off more than having a DM tell them their neat trick that they were counting on is overpowered and suddenly banned.  Ever seen a Sorcerer who took Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand and has been holding those in reserve for a few levels suddenly use those on a Dragon, only to have the DM suddenly say "no, that's broken, you can't use those spells?"  It's not a pretty sight, and I'd like to avoid that.

So again, this is a system that ranks classes before such nerfing.  Tier 1 and 2 class can easily do game breaking things, and DMing for those classes does require checking to make sure the player won't do anything silly (with good players, this is a simple matter of asking them to use their judgement.  With munchkins, you have to be firm).  The fact that they're Tier 1 and 2 is supposed to warn you that some house ruling may be necessary to avoid broken campaigns if your players go a little nuts.

Q11: What assumptions were used in making this system?

A:  I tried to use as few assumptions as possible, to ensure the system would apply to as many games as possible.  However, I had to use a few.  The primary assumptions are equivalent player skill and equivalent optimization level.  If one class is heavily optimized (taking the best available options, whatever best might mean in this case) and another example of the same class is not very optimized at all (taking a bunch of random options without regards to power) then obviously the same class would have two very different power/versitility levels.  Likewise, an incompetent player (or one who's simply not trying) will do far less with a powerful class than someone who's creative and knows the rules well.  I simply can't measure those factors, so the system assumes it's the same.

As far as books available, I assume that the core books are available, as well as whatever book the class appears in.  Obviously, few people play a Dread Necromancer without Heroes of Horror.  For all other sources, I tried to count them based on how commonly used I thought they were.  For example, the Complete series of books are very often used, so I factored in the Barbarian's access to the Lion Totem with the assumption that it would usually be available.  However, 3.0 books like Book of Exalted Deeds are far less likely to be used, so I didn't really factor in the Healer's ability to cast Consecrated Spells out of that book much when ranking that class.  Usually this doesn't actually matter all that much (a Core Wizard is to a Core Rogue as an all books Wizard is to all all books Rogue), but for some classes it matters a great deal... these classes are listed separately (such as the Binder, which gains a TON of power with access to the online official WotC material, and is thus listed at both Tier 2 and Tier 3).
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #2 于: 2018-05-17, 周四 15:42:39 »
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11990.0

You know, I figured, what the heck. I have my own perspective on the Tiers, so I may as well share it.

ACG = Advanced Class Guide Playtest

Anything in red is weak for its tier. Anything in blue is strong for its tier. Not sure if there's a point to color-coding Tier 1s or Tier 6s, but I marked the vow of poverty monk in red for Tier 6 since it's so stupid it's usually in a league of its own.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Sorcerer (Razmiran Priest archetype, Paragon Surge spell, Mongrel Mage archetype, Mnemonic Vestment robe), Oracle (Paragon Surge spell, Mnemonic Vestment robe, Dreamed Secrets feat), Psychic (Mnemonic Esoterica discipline power, Mnemonic Vestment robe) Shaman, Arcanist

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Oracle, Psychic, Sorcerer, Summoner, Unchained Summoner

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.  Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Alchemist, Bard, Skald, Inquisitor, Magus, Investigator, Warpriest, Hunter, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue, Vigilante w/ spellcasting archetype, Occultist, Mesmerist, Medium, Spiritualist

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Barbarian, Unchained Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Adept, Bloodrager, Slayer, Martial Master and/or Mutation Warrior Fighter, Archetyped Brawlers, Kineticist, Shifter

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Fighter, Vanilla Brawler, Vigilante, Ninja, Rogue, Unchained Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler (ACG), Archetyped Monks, Unchained Monk

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Vanilla Monk, Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior, Commoner, Vow of Poverty Monk

google搜尋結果通常會把這篇擺到最前面,涵蓋的職業最多。但懷疑作者女朋友被武僧玩家給搶了,所以把武僧丟到T6,應該待在T5。俠客我覺得也可以上移到T4(或T4紅)。
缺點是為啥各職業是待在哪些層級的原因沒有全部說明,部分說明是散落在下面的回文堆裡。

做為個人補充,吸血鬼獵人(Vampire Hunter)可以丟到T4紅,非常廣的本職技能表和6技能點,還有4環神術(雖然是自發審判表..),但缺點是能力的主題太狹隘,而且很多又很喳喳。
« 上次编辑: 2018-05-17, 周四 17:04:55 由 白貓 »
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #3 于: 2018-05-17, 周四 15:54:40 »
http://rpgbot.net/pathfinder/gamemasters/classbalance/

Pathfinder - Gamemaster Resources - Class Balance
After playing DnD 3.x and Pathfinder for over half of my life, it has become increasingly apparent that not all classes are created equal. While classes might be mechanically sound and fun to play, the capabilities of those classes might be much less than those of other classes.

A common mistake when people discuss class balance, particularly in games like Pathfinder and DnD, is to focus solely on the character's ability to kill things. This is an easy mistake because combat takes up the lion's share of time in most campaigns, and social encounters typically won't get you killed without first changing into a combat encounter. Instead, I propose that class balance should be determined based on the class's ability to fill one or more roles in a party. Classes which are more powerful can fill more roles, and tend to eclipse other characters during play.
Classes by TierNote that these assessments do not account for archetypes. Many archetypes are considerable improvements on their base classes, and many make the base class considerably better or worse, but that information is simply too broad to squeeze into this article.

Tier 1
Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules. These characters tend to eclipse entire parties.

  • Arcanist: The Arcanist flirts with the border between Tier 1 and Tier 2. With the Wizard's spell list, and the ability to prepare spells daily, then treat them like the Sorcerer's list of spells known, the Arcanist is a very fun and easy class to play. Unfortunately, the Arcanist gets spell levels at the same rate as the Sorcerer so they fall behind the Wizard every other level.
  • Cleric: With medium armor, a huge complement of spells, and no restriction on spells known, the Cleric can do basically everything.
  • Druid: With a very unique and well-rounded spell list, the Druid is already a very capable class. The addition of an Animal Companion and Wild Shape allows the Druid to form a one-man party and fill a variety of roles whenever they are necessary.
  • Shaman: The Shaman gets an interesting combination of spells and abilities from the Druid and the Witch. With access to the Witch's full Hex list, plus a list of their own, the Shaman is certainly a powerful class. However, the Shaman still doesn't quite compete with the Druid.
  • Witch: The Witch gets access to many spells from the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists, and can supplement the Witch spell list with a Patron.
  • Wizard: The Wizard spell list is the best in the game, and allows the Wizard to do essentially anything just by changing their prepared spells every morning.
Tier 2
Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no single character can do everything at the same time.

  • Oracle: The Oracle is to the Cleric what the Sorcerer is to the Wizard. Functionally very similar, but less powerful because they get new spell levels on level behind..
  • Sorcerer: Basically a Wizard limited by their spells known, and they get spells one level behind the Wizard.
  • Summoner: Despite being limited to 6th level spells, a short spell list, and a limited number of spells known, the Summoner's Eidolon allows it to a great deal as a single character.
Tier 3
Specialists are capable of doing one important thing very well while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, and generalists capable of doing many things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Classes occasionally have a mechanical ability that can immediately resolve an encounter, but this is a rare exception.

  • Alchemist: Effectively limited to 6th level spells, the Alchemist can do a great deal, but can't compete with a Sorcerer or Wizard.
  • Bard: Bards are fantastically versatile, and can fill nearly any role in the party, but won't excel at those roles as well as classes devoted to that role.
  • Skald: Essentially the same as a bard, though somewhat less versatile.
  • Hunter: With 2/3 casting, an Animal Companion, and some very fantastic and versatile buffs, the Hunter is a great compromise between the combat prowess of the Ranger and the spellcasting of the Druid.
  • Inquisitor: Much like a Bard, the Inquisitor can fill a wide variety of roles, but typically can't compete with classes devoted to that role.
  • Investigator: A really interesting class, the Investigator is capable of being very good at a lot of things at the same time, and can deal reliable precision damage without needing to depend on tricks like flanking or invisibility.
  • Magus: The Magus is an excellent Striker with a limited amount of skills and utility spells which can keep the Magus relevant outside of combat.
  • Warpriest: Somewhere between the Paladin and the Cleric, the Warpriest gets access to both spell lists, giving it a ton of really great options on top of the Warpriest's formidable combat abilities.
Tier 4
Specialists are capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, and generalists are capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Classes rarely have any abilities that can completely resolve an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's focus.

  • Adept: Despite being an NPC class, the Adept get a diverse spell list and goes up to 6th level spells. It lacks the skills and class abilities to match a Bard, and the Adept's spell list is extremely sparse, but it still has plenty of excellent options including a lot of essential save-or-suck spells.
  • Barbarian: Very good at fighting, but that's about it. The Barbarian skill list is very sparse, and their abilities contribute little outside of combat. Rage Powers are the only thing keeping the Barbarian in Tier 4.
  • Bloodrager: The Bloodrager is an exciting combination of the Barbarian's raw muscle and and arcane spellcasters' buff spells. Martial characters are often dependent on support casters to survive and win encounters with Pathfinder's many horrific monsters, but the Bloodrager can quickly and efficiently buff itself without cutting into its damage output.
  • Fighter (Martial Master): Martial Master goes a long way to address the Fighter's problem with being pigeon-holed into one combat trick.
  • Paladin: The Paladin can heal and fight things, and that's about it. They have the Charisma to serve as a Face, but lack the skill list or skill ranks to do anything effectively outside of combat. The Paladin's spell list includes a lot of very interesting buffs, but most of them are purely buffs to the Paladin's combat abilities, and don't provide any options to address gaps the in the Paladin's skill set.
  • Ranger: Despite a sizable pool of skill ranks and a very interesting spell list, the Ranger is almost entirely dedicated to stealth and combat. Archetypes can allow the Ranger to fill additional roles, but they cut into the Ranger's existing abilities, so they're generally a 0-sum option.
  • Slayer: The Slayer is a fantastic improvement on the Rogue. With full BAB, better proficiencies, and better access to feats, the Slayer can easily outpace the Rogue in damage output, and with 6+ skill ranks the Slayer can almost match the Rogue's skills.
Tier 5
Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths.

  • Brawler: Some archetypes can bump the Brawler up to tier 4, but the Brawler is generally little better than the Fighter and Monk, and shares many of the same problems as its two parent classes.
  • Cavalier: The Cavalier is good at combat and can be a Face, but lacks any other abilities which can't be replicated by a low level Cleric or Bard.
  • Fighter: The Fighter is the least versatile player class. As their name suggests, all that they can do is fight things. Because Pathfinder rewards specialization over versatility, Fighters tend to pigeon-hole themselves into their favorite tactic in combat. When this trick doesn't work, Fighters are frequently useless. This problem often becomes more severe as the Fighter gains levels and invests more resources in their favorite trick.
  • Gunslinger: The Gunslinger has a few skills to be a Face, but is otherwise entirely dedicated to shooting things.
  • Monk: The Monk is often listed as tier 6, but the Monk is at least as powerful as the Fighter if you understand how to build a Monk. They also have a few skills which allow the Monk to serve as a Scout.
  • Ninja: Basically a Rogue with a Ki Pool. While many of the Ninja's talents give it a leg up over the Rogue, the Ninja has major problems with MAD and sustainability in combat.
  • Rogue: The iconic Scout and Striker, the Rogue isn't as effective as one would hope. The Rogue is one of very classes that get Trapfinding by default, and their skill list is huge, but a Rogue simply can't get enough skill ranks to cover all of their bases, and they depend too much on their allies to let them use Sneak Attack for the Rogue to be a truly effective Striker.
  • Samurai: Basically a Cavalier with a different flavor.
  • Swashbuckler: While certainly flashier and more interesting to play than the generic Fighter, the Swashbuckler isn't notably more effective. Swashbucklers have the same lack of utility and versatility which plagues most martial classes.
Tier 6
Not even good at what they are intended to do. These are generally reserved for NPCs because they are not intended to be used as player classes.

  • Aristocrat
  • Commoner
  • Expert
  • Warrior

這篇附上了各職業的簡短說明,缺點是OA及之後的職業沒有收錄。因為原文的主題即是職業平衡,原文下方還有針對各職業調整的簡單建議,分成強buff, 弱buff, 強nerf, 弱nerf。
雅各之塔(Jacob's Tower) 個人翻譯的Pathfinder RPG非官方長篇系列冒險模組,一系列13個模組共17萬字,每個模組皆可獨立抽出使用。(已出版,商品頁面) 全彩地圖素材包
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #4 于: 2018-05-17, 周四 16:06:57 »
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/114425/what-tier-are-the-pathfinder-classes的第一篇回文

For the most part, Pathfinder changed little about balance
The primary maxims of 3.5e remain true: magic dominates everything, the more and higher-level magic you have, the better off you are. Magic is both powerful and flexible, allowing magical classes to be strictly-superior to non-magical classes in many cases.

If anything, Pathfinder actually made balance worse: nerfs to combat feats, and the distinct lack of better combat feats, which 3.5e published in supplements and Pathfinder never did, hurt mundane characters dramatically. And spellcasters received new class features, some of them very powerful, plus powerful new spells (e.g. paragon surge, emergency force sphere). There were some scattered nerfs to some core spells, but many are unchanged from 3.5e and still overpowered.


That makes figuring tiers fairly straightforward

Roughly speaking, prepared spellcasters who get 9th-level spells are tier 1, spontaneous spellcasters who get 9th-level spells are tier 2, spellcasters who get 6th-level spells are tier 3, and classes that get little to no magic are tiers 4 and 5. That rule of thumb will work fairly well across Pathfinder.

Tier 1—Arcanist, Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Witch, Wizard

This is pretty straightforward: these classes get the most powerful spells at a given level, and they can change their spell load-out daily, allowing immense flexibility. Pretty much the definition of tier 1.

The druid is notable for the significant changes to wild shape—those definitely hurt the class relative to 3.5e. But ultimately, the druid’s spellcasting was always her best feature, and she still has it.

The arcanist has a strange “prepared spontaneous” spellcasting scheme, but it’s highly advantageous. The only downside to the arcanist is the one-level delay on spell levels, à la sorcerer. Exploits are also rather powerful. On even levels (as well as 1st and 19th), the arcanist is easily the most powerful class in the game; on odd levels, he is still substantially superior to the sorcerer. Easily tier 1.

The witch is much like the wizard, though her patron familiar is obnoxiously vulnerable compared to a wizard’s spellbook. Hexes are mostly meh, but there are enough good, even excellent ones, that they are distinct plus. So yes, no reason to demote her from the first approximation.

The last new class, the shaman, is kind of like a divine witch, and the spirit animal is a much lesser vulnerability than the patron familiar.

Note that it is possible to get sorcerer or oracle into tier 1. It basically involves pumping your spells known and taking advantage of options—particularly with paragon surge and mnemonic vestment—that allow you to change your spells known on a day-to-day basis.

Tier 2—Oracle, Psychic, Sorcerer, (chained) Summoner

The sorcerer is the quintessential tier-2 class, since it gets phenomenally-powerful spells, but is locked into a particular set. However, there are options that allow at least some sorcerers to “unlock” things and gain the flexibility usually found in tier-1 prepared casters. Sorcerers that take advantage of those options are more properly considered tier 1.

The oracle is Pathfinder’s divine version of the sorcerer, so it is also tier 2. And like the sorcerer, the oracle has options for becoming tier 1. It’s also a better class than 3.5e’s favored soul, even ignoring those options.

The psychic is the occult-magic version of the sorcerer, and there aren’t (yet?) occult analogues to the options that allow oracle and sorcerer to become tier 1, so the psychic is distinctly tier 2.

The summoner is an unusual entry here, because it only ever gets 6th-level spells. However, the eidolon is very powerful, and the summoner gets summon monster IX as a spell-like ability at the same time as full-casters gain 9th-level spells. On top of that, many of the summoner’s spells, despite being 5th-level and 6th-level for the summoner, are higher-level for other classes—allowing the summoner to have access to higher-level effects despite nominally only having 6th-level spells. It even allows a way to produce discounted magical items with those spells.

Tier 3—Alchemist, Bard, Hunter, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Medium (with archmage or hierophant), Mesmerist, Occultist, Skald, Spiritualist, Warpriest, unchained Summoner, maybe Bloodrager and unchained Monk and/or Rogue

Pathfinder’s panoply of two-thirds casters is to its credit: these classes tend to be well-balanced, almost by default, because 6th-level spellcasting hits a nice sweet spot in the system. Only one of these classes comes from 3.5e, too.

That class, the bard, actually struggles quite a bit here, though. The changes to bardic music both make it weaker and also make it far more obnoxious to play (I will never understand Paizo’s obsession with round-by-round accounting, but they use it a lot). Furthermore, the 3.5e bard was a class that benefited immensely from supplements, which are unavailable in Pathfinder and replacements for which have not been published. You can make an argument for the Pathfinder bard actually being tier 4, sad as that is. It took the “master of none” trade-off for “jack of all trades” a bit too seriously.

The skald does a much better job at the bard’s schtick than the bard does, in my opinion. It’s still versatile, while having a little more weight to throw around. Even jacks of all trades should have a little specializing in this system.

The unchained summoner, unlike other unchained classes, is actually a nerf, and serves well to bring the summoner back to where it ought to be.

Alchemist, hunter, inquisitor, investigator, spiritualist, and warpriest are pretty straight-forward two-thirds casters with a specialty. They work well. The magus is like those too, but it works verywell.

The occultist I want to shout-out specifically, just for being awesome and feeling more magical than just about any other class in the system, to me. Also, while its spells only go up to 6th-level, the occultist gets a lot of spells known. Not enough to somehow make up for being behind 9th-level spellcasters and vault it into tier 2, but the occultist does a very good job covering a lot of bases with spells alone.

Medium only gets 4th-level spells by default, but with the archmage or hierophant spirit, it gets spells up to 6th level. That allows it to be tier 3. Not having one of those spirits makes it tier 4. Which kind of defeats the purpose of the class in my opinion, since you’re strongly incentivized to just stick to those spirits and not use others (until the very highest levels), but oh well.

The unchained rogue is kind of an interesting case here: as a rogue, with lots of skills, the rogue is about as versatile as a purely-mundane class can be. And the unchained rogue is just about the best pure damage-dealer in the game. Those two combined make a strong argument for being tier 3, though you could argue that skills don’t do enough and the class is tier 4. I tend to favor 3 for it. Note also that the eldritch scoundrel archetype trades half of its sneak attack for 6th-level spellcasting—even with halved sneak attack, the unchained rogue can out-damage a lot of other classes, and then it gets spellcasting too, so that archetype at least is firmly in tier 3.

The unchained monk can make similar claims, but not as strongly. The rogue gains more skills, and is the better damage-dealer.

And the bloodrager I’m even less happy about. The class feels very close to a great class, but the basic “cast spell on beginning to rage” feature is unconscionably delayed until 11th, meaning 50% of levels (and thus well more then half the time actually spent playing a bloodrager, since so many games don’t play at high levels) kills the class. The class works vastly better if bloodrage can include a spell right from 1st (well, 4th), and there are no level limits beyond the actual spells the bloodrager has. Even then, the 4th-level spellcasting holds it back a lot. Basically, in almost every way, the bloodrager looks very poor in comparison to the warpriest. Some would argue for it being tier 3, but I’m much more inclined to put it at 4.

Tier 4—Barbarian, Brawler, Fighter, Kineticist (optimally), Medium (without archmage or hierophant), Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Vigilante

The fighter, particularly with archetypes, does pretty well for itself in Pathfinder (or at least, would if not for feat nerfs), and so is more comfortably tier 4 than in 3.5e. Still, the sheer lack of good feats to take hurts the fighter a lot, and prevents it from really being stellar.

The barbarian (chained or not) is... hurt, relative to 3.5e, but then the 3.5e barbarian was very close to being a 2-level class, and the Pathfinder barbarian does better than that. Rage powers give a reason to stay in the class, while in 3.5e it was a matter of picking up rage and then doing something else. Still, while the barbarian was rarely used for more than a level or two in 3.5e, a level or two were used a lot in 3.5e. The Pathfinder barbarian has much less uniquely going for it. There are better damage-dealers (including the fighter), which means that you really have little reason to play the barbarian unless you really want to be a “barbarian.” And even then, a bloodrager or skald would be a better choice, or a refluffed alchemist (vivisectionist) or summoner (synthesist) do vastly better. Still, if you play one, the barbarian still can dish out the hurt pretty well.

The other two classes shared with 3.5e, paladin and ranger, are here largely because of their spellcasting. Of the two, though, the paladin is doing much better, with the vastly-improved smite evil and the partial reduction in MAD. With those changes, the paladin is probably at the top of tier 4, and has some claim to tier 3.

The brawler is probably the only other candidate here that really has much claim on possibly being tier 3. Being able to change some of your feats daily is a nice big boost to versatility, and a feature we should see more of in warrior classes. But unarmed combat is awkward, and ultimately Pathfinder feats are lack-luster—the class would work so much better in an environment with better feats (e.g. 3.PF).

The vigilante is a very weird class, and in practice really awkward to play. That said, it has excellent skills and quite-solid damage-dealing. In some ways, it’s a somewhat-lesser unchained rogue or unchained monk. In my experience, though, its awkwardness makes it difficult to leverage what it has and the class struggles to contribute as much as it should. Vigilante talents are strictly (and intentionally) superior to ninja tricks and rogue talents. The vigilante also gets several archetypes with 6th-level spellcasting: those, particularly the zealot, are very good, and make the vigilante tier 3.

The ninja is in a similar boat, though it’s much more comfortable where it is. Ninja tricks are pretty much strictly superior to rogue talents, but inferior to vigilante talents. It partially makes up for that by being less awkward to play.

The medium was already mentioned: without archmage or hierophant, they are stuck with their half-casting and that’s pretty mediocre. The other spirit benefits can be nice, but you really want them on some other class that can take advantage of them, which the medium largely can’t.

Finally, the kineticist. The kineticist is a problematic class. It more-or-less doesn’t work as described. However, if you ignore the description of the class, and follow certain rules, the kineticist has a solid claim on tier 4. See our Q&A on the subject.

Tier 5—Gunslinger, Kineticist (blaster), (chained) Monk, (chained) Rogue

Pathfinder firearms are awful, which means the class that focuses on them pretty much is too. The gunslinger spends most of its class features trying to overcome the problems with firearms, and while it does that—achieving significant damage numbers—other classes can do that and more, or at least do that with far less hassle.

The kineticist played as described—as a blaster—is extremely limited, having mediocre damage output which will quickly burn the kineticist out. It actually struggles to even reach tier 5, to be honest.

And the chained monk and rogue just have... little to no reason to play them, even if we ignore their unchained versions. Mobile mystical warrior can be done better by almost every class listed under tier 3, while ninja is pretty much a straight upgrade over rogue (and vigilante arguably a straight upgrade over that, but again, awkward to play). The qinggong monk and the eldritch scoundrel rogue archetypes do add spellcasting to these classes and therefore improve them to tier 4, possibly even to tier 3 for the eldritch scoundrel, but even with those there are still better options.

Untiered—Antipaladin, Cavalier, Samurai, Shifter, Slayer, Swashbuckler
Simply don’t have enough experience with them. The antipaladin is probably tier 4, and the rest are probably tier 5, but I cannot claim to be certain about them.

But the shifter bears special mention because it marks the only time Paizo has ever admitted that a class failed outright. That’s a kind of staggering statement, considering some of the problems some of the other classes have, and how much community feedback there has been complaining about those without any acknowledgement by Paizo. For the shifter to uniquely get overhauled and an apology made to the community suggests that it was very poorly off indeed. I am still not in a position to judge the post-errata shifter’s balance.

這篇的排法和上兩篇的差距稍微大點,每個職業都有給說明,少數職業沒有評到。原文下方的回文也有其他人的層級表,不過沒有這篇詳細。
« 上次编辑: 2018-05-17, 周四 16:09:41 由 白貓 »
雅各之塔(Jacob's Tower) 個人翻譯的Pathfinder RPG非官方長篇系列冒險模組,一系列13個模組共17萬字,每個模組皆可獨立抽出使用。(已出版,商品頁面) 全彩地圖素材包
[PF]魔戰士變體大全
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #5 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 17:16:12 »
能UMD到t2也太怪了
倒不如说非战力的评级就有点怪

而且战士缺乏灵活度也是瞎扯,整张附魔表和物品掌握表摆在那里
:em013
« 上次编辑: 2018-05-18, 周五 17:18:03 由 girigiripony »
  No mind to think.
没有可以思考的心智。

I am the vessel.
我即容器
No will to break.
没有可以屈从的意志。

I am the Hollow Knight!
我即
空洞骑士
No voice to cry suffering.
没有为苦难哭泣的声音。
Born of God and Void.
生于神与虚空之手。


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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #6 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 17:38:14 »
这作者基本是个唯法术论者,但是PF的职业能力异常丰富,法术早就不是3r的那种独霸资源了。

本文参考性较低。
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12级居合巫女
  

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(阵亡)
  

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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #7 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 18:01:56 »
勇士魂的附魔表依然是屬於戰鬥範疇呀,物品掌握提供的法術總共就只有10個,和當初吹天選神通是九環滿BAB職業一樣...
雅各之塔(Jacob's Tower) 個人翻譯的Pathfinder RPG非官方長篇系列冒險模組,一系列13個模組共17萬字,每個模組皆可獨立抽出使用。(已出版,商品頁面) 全彩地圖素材包
[PF]魔戰士變體大全
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #8 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 18:23:46 »
勇士魂的附魔表依然是屬於戰鬥範疇呀,物品掌握提供的法術總共就只有10個,和當初吹天選神通是九環滿BAB職業一樣...
不……你看文中提到是战斗风格的僵硬,说单个风格吃瘪战士就咸鱼了。
Fighter: The Fighter is the least versatile player class. As their name suggests, all that they can do is fight things. Because Pathfinder rewards specialization over versatility, Fighters tend to pigeon-hole themselves into their favorite tactic in combat. When this trick doesn't work, Fighters are frequently useless. This problem often becomes more severe as the Fighter gains levels and invests more resources in their favorite trick.
但实际上在勇士之魂全附魔表和训练全战斗专长表的加持下,应对力在菜刀中堪称顶尖,即使是文中所说中等程度的优化,作为一个战士不拿勇士魂也是过于弱智了,可能是这位作者并没有搞什么深入研究菜刀 :em013。你看我都没有提拿千招百式一轮开三个专长!
生活自理水平肯定是有表比没表舒服,这点没啥问题。但既然蛮子凭借砍爆都是T4,那怎么讲也该把战士塞进去。
« 上次编辑: 2018-05-18, 周五 18:31:25 由 girigiripony »
  No mind to think.
没有可以思考的心智。

I am the vessel.
我即容器
No will to break.
没有可以屈从的意志。

I am the Hollow Knight!
我即
空洞骑士
No voice to cry suffering.
没有为苦难哭泣的声音。
Born of God and Void.
生于神与虚空之手。


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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #9 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 18:30:27 »
当然是千招开Versatile Training
勇士附魔附train在开个Adaptable Training啦

野蛮人不是t1,喷了

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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #10 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 18:38:41 »
你說的是第二篇的吧,那就是該作者的看法或他對戰士瞭解沒有戰神鴨那麼透徹了。

千招百式拿專長我覺得算高優化範圍了,勇士魂+訓練附魔的combo我覺得也差不多了。

即使是文中所說中等程度的優化,作為一個戰士不拿勇士魂也是過於弱智了 地圖砲你放的,弱智貓我先逃跑了



nova你家的野蠻人和穿無限手套的薩諾斯一樣無所不能,t1 t1 (
劇透 -   :
雅各之塔(Jacob's Tower) 個人翻譯的Pathfinder RPG非官方長篇系列冒險模組,一系列13個模組共17萬字,每個模組皆可獨立抽出使用。(已出版,商品頁面) 全彩地圖素材包
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #11 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 20:19:39 »
这里面将施法者当成总是准备好一样,实际上反而是菜刀总能捡到模组给的克制武器干爆或者连克制武器都不用就干爆

那我也只好拿出一个商盟的来自莱贝达的钱圣骑不停准备对应装备

让队友们都拿着指名杀戮箭屠龙子弹让拿+2破龙长剑的白猫都还没砍到boss就结团

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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #12 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 20:35:52 »
雅各之塔(Jacob's Tower) 個人翻譯的Pathfinder RPG非官方長篇系列冒險模組,一系列13個模組共17萬字,每個模組皆可獨立抽出使用。(已出版,商品頁面) 全彩地圖素材包
[PF]魔戰士變體大全
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Re: [PF][轉載&整理]Pathfinder 職業層級表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #13 于: 2018-05-18, 周五 20:42:42 »
3r时候还是很有道理的
大家dm魔改的怪物做最多的事情就是加免疫

但pf最多的事情是加血量ac,而且越加越多
不信白猫你将你那个哥斯拉原版只将豁免*1000000然后拿出来溜溜

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Re: [PF][转载&整理]Pathfinder 职业层级表(Tier List)
« 回帖 #14 于: 2018-07-09, 周一 11:35:39 »
被白猫传送过来的……emmm感覺是在无限吹準備施法的施法者, 所谓的多面手全是靠施法来当 :em015
作者好像以為準備施法能永远完美準備好一切的样子

技能役的擔当调查员和诗人都被放在T3了……
而奧能師…我本人覺得是跟术士同级,在前期奧能師能準備法術數量较少,而且每日法術量也比术士少一点,不像术士能用天職獎勵和血統加法術,只能靠专長或學派家变体拿

拳師的千招百式樓上都说了就不再评论了
☷☷☷龍神阿普蘇聖武士準則☷☷☷
劇透 -   :
我乃阿普蘇的狂怒之爪。當邪惡露出馬腳,我定當出手,而此舉絕不滿足仇敵的惡意。
I am the talon of Apsu’s wrath. I strike where I am needed, but only when evil has been unmasked and there can be no doubt of my enemy’s malice.
當我無所作為之際,我將踏上旅途以探索新的焦點。大道三千,各取其一。
When my purpose is unclear, I will walk the roads of the world to find a fresh focus. Every road leads to a new beginning.
除守衛他人之外,我絕不從容就義。我當該退則退,君子報仇,十年不晚。
Nothing is worth sacrificing my life for, except protecting the lives of others. I will retreat when needed, and come back to vex my foes once again.
我會展示仁慈,但可一而不可再。那些背叛我善意之人,我將痛剿窮追。
Mercy is offered, but only once. Should I be betrayed in my moment of kindness, I will not stop until I have put my enemy down.
斷罪僅是我目標的一部分。須要時,我將留下協助受我保護者,使其得以自力更生。
It is not enough to slay evil and carry on. I will spend the time necessary to help those I’ve protected to fend for themselves.

☷☷☷PFS人物卡☷☷☷

☷☷☷PF整合資源☷☷☷